Curse

cataphract · Sep 27, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

I don't heal pets. The only pet I did heal was a beastmaster's pet. The ranger stated that he was a BM and that his pet would be doing the attacking. He did have Predator's Pounce which heals the pet and he did heal him with Comfort Animal, but sometimes that wasn't enough. Because the pet was actually useful I decided to heal him.

bigwig · Sep 27, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Most people who bring their pet don't really expect or want you to heal their pets. If he dies i comfort animal him and go.

Just stop pugging all together, monks are not the problem, pugs are.

saphir · Sep 27, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

i only heal pets if i have extra energy, no one is immediately in danger or dying, the party is not under heavy pressure, or if the pet is doing a better job tanking than the tanks.

if a pet owner complains, i tell them that if they like, i can spend my skills and energy keeping your pet alive at the expense of your health if you so prefer. it's either you or your pet. this is generally in fow/uw

of course then there's the opposite end of the spectrum of a b/p group where we had a ranger complaining that no one healed their pets, and that despite defeating the purpose of pets in a b/p group, he was going to heal his pet...

Kook~NBK~ · Sep 27, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Bad (healing) Monk: Party members die through no fault of their own.

Good (healing) Monk: Party Members stay alive and make it through mission OK. *UNLESS there are other members of the party with less-than-stellar tactical moves that gets themselves & others killed & no amount of healing is gonna stop it.*

*Translation: Unless there are 1 or more morons in the party who over aggro the mobs & under achieve in the damage dealing department.

Brustow · Sep 27, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

I think the problem here is just a reflection of society. Everyone has to bitch and moan about something and everyone has an opinion on how something should be handled. People start fighting and then nothing gets done (in this case Quests/Missions in GW). You put a handful of strangers into a room, are they going to be an extremely effective team? Probably not. It really depends on the level of maturity of the individuals to compromise and work together.

Guild Wars is a VERY easy game to play. What makes this game difficult is that a lot of people just can't work together as a team. If each individual of a team is helpful, compromising, mature, etc. then it really doesn't matter what class you are, what builds you have, because you already have a team that can beat any PVE area in GW.

cataphract · Sep 27, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

Most people who bring their pet don't really expect or want you to heal their pets. If he dies i comfort animal him and go.

IMHO, that's not very.. how can I say it.. smart.
When your pet dies you have a 10 second blackout of skills. In those 10 seconds you are as useful as a jealous ex. Furthermore, you're losing (in most cases) 2 skill slots on the pet: charm and comfort. If you're not a beastmaster comfort can't heal the pet enough. On top of that - the pet does not do it's max damage because of your low or none beastmestery. You can argue bringing a pet that constantly dies to help the MM make minions like a good deal of ranger have. But that's even less smart. One minion for a 10 sec blackout and 2 interrupts less? Two interrupts that could have negated some nasty skill like Silver Armor, Earthquake, etc... You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that pets on rangers that are not beastmasters do more harm to the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

i only heal pets if i have extra energy, no one is immediately in danger or dying, the party is not under heavy pressure, or if the pet is doing a better job tanking than the tanks.

if a pet owner complains, i tell them that if they like, i can spend my skills and energy keeping your pet alive at the expense of your health if you so prefer. it's either you or your pet. this is generally in fow/uw

of course then there's the opposite end of the spectrum of a b/p group where we had a ranger complaining that no one healed their pets, and that despite defeating the purpose of pets in a b/p group, he was going to heal his pet...

Don't you just love rangers that bow-lure even if they have a pet?

Average scenario: ranger luers, pet rushes in. Mobs start pwning the pet who is 2x radars away. The other monk runs in after the pet. Healing Breeze. Rest of the party follows monk into Fire Storm, SS, Maelstrom, (insert a bitch AoE here). I had one PuG ball up on a bridge in RoF mission. Needless to say the Imps pwned the pet in a second then proceeded to pwn the balled up people in a matter of seconds. Me being monk and the only survivor of this (I stood out of the Imp aggro but in range to heal the team) got me a "well deserved" flame-fest. Next time I'm going down with the ship.

Not.

Xenrath · Sep 27, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

I'm starting to think these kinds of threads should be locked on sight. They don't achieve anything (as they keep cropping up many months later, obviously nothing changed).

I think there should be a template for it:

----

Hi! I'd like to complain about warriors/monks/eles/assassins/mesmers/other* in PUGS! They make me so mad and 75%/85%/95% of them suck! They have no idea how to play and they got me killed by using Frenzy/Mending/Firestorm/Other*.

Also I hate how they aggro/tank/heal/die/moan/do nothing/other*. They stink because they are not as good as me/not the worlds best players. I will now play only with henchies/friends/guildies/myself.

(* please specify)

----

Well good news, Heroes coming soon so you can all play with them and leave what's left of the "multiplayer" aspect of PvE to the ones who still think it's a multiplayer game (which has good and bad moments)

technician · Sep 27, 2006, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Pretty much most of the time I do feel like i'm solo monking for my teams , when I run into those monks who use Heal Party to heal one person then spam "My Energy is 2/40!!" 500 times or have a full skill bar that costs 10-15 en per skill , then theres monks who bring smite skills like bane and holy strike as if a monks supposed to be focusing on damage but hey I figure it's just more of a challenge for me.

bigwig · Sep 27, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

IMHO, that's not very.. how can I say it.. smart.
When your pet dies you have a 10 second blackout of skills. In those 10 seconds you are as useful as a jealous ex. Furthermore, you're losing (in most cases) 2 skill slots on the pet: charm and comfort. If you're not a beastmaster comfort can't heal the pet enough. On top of that - the pet does not do it's max damage because of your low or none beastmestery. You can argue bringing a pet that constantly dies to help the MM make minions like a good deal of ranger have. But that's even less smart. One minion for a 10 sec blackout and 2 interrupts less? Two interrupts that could have negated some nasty skill like Silver Armor, Earthquake, etc... You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that pets on rangers that are not beastmasters do more harm to the team.

When a pet dies, all of its owner's skills are disabled for between 10 and 3 seconds based on the owner's Beast Mastery level. If a pet dies soon after it is resurrected (approximately within 15 seconds), the owner's skills will not be disabled for this death. If you aren't actually a ranger, your skills aren't disabled when your pet dies. (This can happen in early PvE play before you have chosen your secondary profession.)

who said i had no attributes in beast mastery?

Most people who bring their pet don't really expect or want you to heal their pets. If he dies i comfort animal him and go.

cataphract · Sep 27, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

I give the smeg up. Keep bringing your useless pets. See if I care anymore. Because I don't. Not anymore. kthx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

I'm starting to think these kinds of threads should be locked on sight. They don't achieve anything (as they keep cropping up many months later, obviously nothing changed).

Good thing you're not a moderator. ggnore

CorstedPirate · Sep 27, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

I'm starting to think these kinds of threads should be locked on sight. They don't achieve anything (as they keep cropping up many months later, obviously nothing changed).

I think there should be a template for it:

----

Hi! I'd like to complain about warriors/monks/eles/assassins/mesmers/other* in PUGS! They make me so mad and 75%/85%/95% of them suck! They have no idea how to play and they got me killed by using Frenzy/Mending/Firestorm/Other*.

Also I hate how they aggro/tank/heal/die/moan/do nothing/other*. They stink because they are not as good as me/not the worlds best players. I will now play only with henchies/friends/guildies/myself.

(* please specify)

----

Well good news, Heroes coming soon so you can all play with them and leave what's left of the "multiplayer" aspect of PvE to the ones who still think it's a multiplayer game (which has good and bad moments)

LMAO! I love the template, how true it is.

Xeeron · Sep 27, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

Um, what are you talking about? Using Healing Breeze doesn't make the game more challenging. There's nothing wrong with it. The problem is monks that think just spamming Healing Breeze and Heal Party as the only heal is a correct option. It's a waste of energy to do that, counterproductive, and just downright stupid.

Hmmm, I am sure that HB has been discussed here before, but let me just repeat it here quickly, to stop people from getting the impression that it is a good skill. Take an average monk with 11+1 healing, 10+1 divine (the rest being in inspiration for example). How much do you heal with 10 energy for healing breeze vs 2x5 energy for 2 orisons?

Healing Breeze: 8x2x10 + 35 = 195 health
2 Orisons: 2x60 + 2*35 = 190 health

Yes that is right, you get all the downsides of HB:

*It is an enchantment
*It does not heal instantly (!!)
*It causes overheal

for a mere 5 health more compared to orison. Now, as with all skills, there will be special circumstances when that is ok, but in your normal PUG, there is no justification to use HB over orison and that does not even take into account that you could use much better skills like WoH or Ethereal Light. The problem is NOT ONLY the spamming of HB.

In your normal PuG, HB is a waste.

- Xeeron

Trvth Jvstice · Sep 27, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeeron

Hmmm, I am sure that HB has been discussed here before, but let me just repeat it here quickly, to stop people from getting the impression that it is a good skill. Take an average monk with 11+1 healing, 10+1 divine (the rest being in inspiration for example). How much do you heal with 10 energy for healing breeze vs 2x5 energy for 2 orisons?

Healing Breeze: 8x2x10 + 35 = 195 health
2 Orisons: 2x60 + 2*35 = 190 health

Yes that is right, you get all the downsides of HB:

*It is an enchantment
*It does not heal instantly (!!)
*It causes overheal

for a mere 5 health more compared to orison. Now, as with all skills, there will be special circumstances when that is ok, but in your normal PUG, there is no justification to use HB over orison and that does not even take into account that you could use much better skills like WoH or Ethereal Light. The problem is NOT ONLY the spamming of HB.

In your normal PuG, HB is a waste.

- Xeeron

Wrong. It does heal instantly because of divine favor. And an intelligent monk wouldn't use hb when orison or dwaana's would have sufficed. The only time I don't take breeze is when I'm in an area where players need a lot of hex removal (diversion or backfire etc).

EDIT: Also, it would take at least 4 seconds to cast 2 orisons. Sure, you wouldn't use only breeze on someone taking heavy dmg, but it's a nice skill to "cast-and-forget" on someone to keep their health at an acceptable lvl while they're taking steady light to moderate dmg.

Also, I'm pretty sure the "average" monk has more than 11+1 in healing and 10+1 in d.favor. I use 16 in heal and 13 in d. favor.

FalconDance · Sep 27, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Xeeron, you fail to see that in some instances, Breeze is *very* handy.

But hey, if some people are so close-minded that all they can see is one skill set for the whole game <<shrugs>>.

Divinus Stella · Sep 27, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Well, 2 orisons takes 2 seconds to cast, healing breeze only 1 second, its not a great heal, but i would rather have the monks use healing breeze on me than spend his 10 energy on a fireball or ressing his pet.

saphir · Sep 27, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeeron

In your normal PuG, HB is a waste.
- Xeeron

perhaps you would like to define "normal PuG"?
I find in most groups from the ascalon to the desert missions/quests, orison may suffice, especially if you have lower levels who do not have as much hp as a level 20 does. In these places, it's fairly easy to monk, with plenty of downtime between heals even in the midst of a large fight. The mobs just don't do that much damage that quickly.

In higher level areas where the mobs hit hard and fast, and aoe spike damage is constantly a threat, you simply don't have time to be casting 2 orisons to fix someone up. In that time that you spent casting and waiting for the recharge, someone else in your party may be dead from a spike. This is especially true from heavy high damage pressure, or over aggro (another common occurrence in pugs). When a pug happens to aggro 2 abyssmal groups + 1/2 night crawlers and a few shadow eles right before the first quest building - and beileve I've seen it many times, your skills are barely recharging fast enough to keep all the heals going. Recharge is usually more of a problem than energy then.. even w/ a 20/20 focus.

HB is especially good to be used on someone who may have taken a spike around 50% hp and have retreated out of aggro temporarily and is no longer under attack. In high level areas, there simply isn't the time to be wasting 2 orisons on him over 4 seconds when in the next second your monk may be spiked and the necro is getting pummelled by the abyssmal.

It's like those monks who cast Heal Party in a UW pug. By the time they finish the cast, half the party is dead. (assuming no bonder of course)

w00t! · Sep 27, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Interesting that this thread has devolved from PUG Monks driving people insane to whether Healing Breeze is either great, or else the mark of a bad monk.

I have a monk who just topped 3 million experience, and none of that through solo farming, so I have had a chance to be both a bad and a good monk.

Point is, the spells are pretty much a secondary consideration when deciding whether a monk is good or not. Someone earlier mentioned that it was about timing, finess, et cetera. I agree completely; it's about how you play the character, not what skills you bring.

Most monks know that whether they'll be successful is dependant on both their skill, and the skill of the party. A good monk can't save a bad party, and a good party often can't survive with a bad monk.

The formula for success is farily easy; take three 5 point healing spells of your choice, one big bang healing spell, heal party, and whatever else you want. Cast those 5 point healing spells all day long, and if people don't over-aggro, you'll never run yourself out of energy.

Energy management spells aren't needed in PvE, though they're a must in PvP. When necros ask me if they should bring Blood is Power, I usually tell them that if I need that spell cast on me, we're most likely doomed anyway.

Damage negation for yourself usually isn't necessary either. I don't attack, so I rarely draw aggro. When I do, I just run a pick play with another character to clear the aggro. Sprint makes this easier, but usually isn't necessary.

So straight cheap healing, cast only when needed, and you're golden. Switch your build to RC prot, active prot, boon, boon / bond, blessed light, or whatever if you're bored. But none of those are a good substitute for the simple formula of 5 point heals cast judiciously.

Xeeron · Sep 28, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

God, why am I even having this discussion, I should care less about what other people use in their skill bar... anyway:

Quote:

Wrong. It does heal instantly because of divine favor.

Yes for about 35 health, depending on your divine favor attribute...

Quote:

Also, it would take at least 4 seconds to cast 2 orisons.

It would, but if you need to heal faster, there are 7 other skills on your skill bar.

Quote:

Sure, you wouldn't use only breeze on someone taking heavy dmg, but it's a nice skill to "cast-and-forget" on someone to keep their health at an acceptable lvl while they're taking steady light to moderate dmg.

Agreed, it is a spell for lazy people. I'd rather take a monk with good spells over a lazy monk though.

Quote:

Xeeron, you fail to see that in some instances, Breeze is *very* handy.

You fail at knowing my mind better than I do. Breeze is indeed very handy and I see that ... for 55 farming. But we are talking about PuGs.

Quote:

In higher level areas where the mobs hit hard and fast, and aoe spike damage is constantly a threat, you simply don't have time to be casting 2 orisons to fix someone up.

If anything hits a target hard and fast, HB is the worst skill you could use. You need WoH or go protection.

Quote:

HB is especially good to be used on someone who may have taken a spike around 50% hp and have retreated out of aggro temporarily and is no longer under attack.

If you have time and energy to heal someone who does not have aggro at the moment, the situation is not critical in the least, any spell would do.

Quote:

Recharge is usually more of a problem than energy then.. even w/ a 20/20 focus.

How many direct heals do you bring? 1? There should be a minimum of 3 direct heals in your bar, check what w00t! is saying above:
"three 5 point healing spells of your choice, one big bang healing spell".

Now by all means, keep using whatever skills you like, but someone asked here whether he should bring HB for PuGs and telling him that HB is great means setting up the next "all pug monks suck" thread.

- Xeeron

Dixie Lady · Sep 28, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Heal

Healing Breeze, on the other hand, is not a good skill for primary monks.. I won't even get started on monks with Mending...

I am a PUG monk. I could not count the times that party members ask if I have mending, breeze and healing seed and seem very irritated that I don't carry those.
The majority of missions I go on I am complimented by the end of the game and some ask me to join their guild and some add me to friend's list.
I have had a few times of trying to be the only monk or having another monk that must not be doing much, and bombed out. My pet peeve is when someone dies and yells 'REZ ME! REZ ME!' hey monk!!! what the heck are you doing??"
No matter that the rest of the party might die if I stopped to rez him. After everyone is safe, THEN I will rez.

Someone said a good monk will use henches. I always hench on quests but I don't attempt to do that on missions.

Don't be too quick to judge PUG monks. It might be that it's just a bad party. As far as ego, I don't think monks have that since they are the first to be blamed for failure. No one seems to blame the tanks for letting MOB past the front lines to attack the casters. When they break thru and attack me personally.. I run! I will do no good if I am dead.
And what about casters that insist on being on the front lines with the warriors? I have a 1 sec recharge skill (shorter range) I use for casters because they are supposed to be next to me.

Oh, but all good Monks are in a guild. Well, the endless guild/alliance chatter is distracting and can get annoying, TS is totally distracting and the long waits to form a group are just not worth it to me. I am now in a guild that seems to have only one active member. This has stopped all the pesky ingame guild invites and also allows me to AB.
Most of my PUG missions have been with some good people, all of whom are in guilds, and I have made some friends this way.

yesitsrob · Sep 28, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

I could not count the times that party members ask if I have mending, breeze and healing seed and seem very irritated that I don't carry those.

this is why pugs aren't very good....

I actually know of uses of healing breeze in the game, I am yet to come across a scenario in which Healing Breeze is a good skill on a primary monk. I'm sure there are some, but they are not in being a healer pick up.

I've not really read through this thread much, but people who are talking about the uses of HB and Mending on a monks bar really need to re-evaluate their bars.